Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

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davews
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:52 am

Certainly not a new problem, spammers have been doing this for years. Usually you get a burst of them for a few days then it stops as they move on to other addresses.

But you mention that dreaded word 'bounce'. No doubt you will get others to tell you off as well, but in short bouncing is yesterday's spam technique and serves no purpose with today's spammers as the bounces never get back to the spammer (who would do absolutely nothing about it if they did receive it). It is more significantly probably the very reason why you are getting your present problem. Please do the correct thing and PERMANENTLY disable that bounce feature. One day Firetrust will see the light and remove it from their program, it really is that bad.
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stan_qaz
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:32 am

I'm one of the more aggressive anti bouncers. I really hate it when a bunch of folks decide to bounce their incoming spam to my inbox. I really can't understand why you have decided to assist the spammer in trying to disrupt my incoming mail. the spammer I can understand, they hope to make some money out of it and have no moral qualms about their methods. I can't understand you bouncers, you make no money out of ruining my day, sending me a forged message in response to a spam that I never sent and don't even know the source of surely is doing you no good, all I can assume is that you have nothing better to do than abuse innocent people for some kind of sick amusement.

This is a good read on bouncing. http://wiki.castlecops.com/What_is_Wron ... ncing_Spam

I should warn you, if you send me a bounce I will make a sincere effort to get your ISP to shut your net access off. Since you have engaged in e-mail forgery, abuse of another (read your ISP's AUP on that) net user and have gotten your ISP's server into the spamcop mail rejection database I have a fair chance.
I am not a Firetrust employee just a MW user.
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Ikeb
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:39 am

The biggest problem it seems to me, is that email headers are so easily forged. The second biggest problem is that uninitiated email users have no idea how email headers could be so easily forged. You'd think that Internet designers would have rectified this big problem long ago, right? Well sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you'd be wrong. :(
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stan_qaz
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:48 am

Folks have solved the header forgery issue multiple times in a variety of different ways. The problem is two fold, folks can't agree on one method (think HD-DVD vs BlueRay) to use and since the folks that can solve the problem for regular users are uber-geeks that don't have the problem themselves it isn't a priority.

Keep in mind eliminating header-forgery wouldn't stop spam, it would just stop spammers from forging an address that was protected if the mail recipient cared to check. Spammers would quickly establish a new spamming strategy and the flood of garbage would continue BUT you could trust the addresses that were verified were real ones. That would lead to a new round of anti-spam tools and the battle would continue.
I am not a Firetrust employee just a MW user.
--
First rule of computer consulting: Sell a customer a Linux computer and you'll eat for a day,
sell a customer a Windows computer and you'll eat for a lifetime.
Ikeb
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:41 pm

A key point though is that with better header authentication, a spammer can more easily be traced and thus subsequently prosecuted. Currently spammers can abuse their privileges with impunity. I'm hoping for the day that ordinary folks can assume ownership of the Internet while spammers are forced to live in the gutter with the primordial slime from whence they came.
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stan_qaz
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:05 pm

I see spammers living in the gutter with the primordial slime from whence they came, busily swapping lists of servers that have not set up SPF or setting up their own servers with valid SPF records. Still SPF would be a help.
I am not a Firetrust employee just a MW user.
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sell a customer a Windows computer and you'll eat for a lifetime.
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AlphaCentauri
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:49 am

@malc,

Don't direct your anger at stan. He's explaining what he's doing and why he's doing it. He's been taking the time to explain it to new users over and over for years. Most other people just forward your bounce to Spamcop and let your ISP give you the news. If you don't want your spam, other people sure don't want to get their own spam and yours, too. And spammers now actually send spam disguised as bounces, so don't expect people to take the time before reporting to figure out which bounces are original spams and which bounces are backscatter spam from clueless users. (BTW, when you bounced that spam, did you also report it to Spamcop yourself? Aren't you glad Spamcop won't get fooled by the fake "from" address, too?)

In fact, if a the mailer who sends you a spam randomly chooses a "from" address that happens to be a "spamtrap" address -- an email address that has never been used for anything and is hidden on the internet somewhere only bots will find it -- your bounce could automatically add your IP address to a list of sources of spam that will get all your email blacklisted by all your friends' spam filters. And don't even think of using bounce from your work computer, not if you want to keep your job.

Be angry at the few management people at Firetrust who refuse to remove bouncing and refuse to stop advertising it as a desirable feature when they know perfectly well that most spam has fake "from" addresses, that MWP doesn't check for "from" addresses that don't match the source IP address before bouncing, and that most spammers don't care how many invalid addresses are on their lists anyway.
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AlphaCentauri
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:03 am

malc wrote:Some of you seem to be deliberately missing my point - I welcome friendly advice and will act on it! I do not welcome aggression and threats to newcomerswho are seeking help notv abuse. if this is the manner in which this forum operates, I for one want nothing to do with it. I only hope when you need help you find a friendlier welcome.
I'm afraid you're mistaking friendly advice for aggression. We are trying to make sure you understand how serious the risk you are taking is. We get lots of spam; we don't need to be aggressive to you and your bounces. But we are here because we feel MWP is a good product, and we don't want new users to suffer negative consequences because they were misled by marketing hype. The people who aren't on this forum are also reporting fake bounces, and they don't care what happens to you.
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stan_qaz
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:01 am

It is interesting that my actions which are legal and allowed under my ISPs rules are seen as aggressive while actions that are unlawful (in the US under the Can-Spam laws on header forgery and in many other countries under similar laws) and a clear violation of the bouncer's ISP's acceptable use policy aren't.

I promise not to bother anyone as long as they don't attack my mailbox, heck my ISP insists on that to keep my net connection so you can trust me on that.

Given that promise I still insist on my right under the law and my ISP contract to report folks abusing my e-mail in an unlawful manner and/or in violation of their ISP's acceptable use policy.

I also insist on my right to sound grumpy (but will apologize for it now that the spammer has moved on to another victim) when I open my mail in the morning to over a thousand bogus bounces because folks who send me their spam instead of doing anything constructive with it like reporting to FirstAlert or spamcop.net.
I am not a Firetrust employee just a MW user.
--
First rule of computer consulting: Sell a customer a Linux computer and you'll eat for a day,
sell a customer a Windows computer and you'll eat for a lifetime.
Ikeb
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:30 am

Keep in mind though that a large majority of bounces prolly don't result from folks actively bouncing spam. Rather I expect that inactive, closed, and/or full accounts account for the majority of bounces. That's not to make excuses for FireTrust, who should know better. :nono
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stan_qaz
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:28 am

With MW it is so easy to report bounces I don't mind taking time to get an ISP that allows over-full or closed accounts to bounce added to the spamcop.net blacklist.
I am not a Firetrust employee just a MW user.
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First rule of computer consulting: Sell a customer a Linux computer and you'll eat for a day,
sell a customer a Windows computer and you'll eat for a lifetime.
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rusticdog
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:27 am

It's very difficult to read tone into typed text, especially if we know nothing about the persons history and background, therefore we often must make our own assumptions based on the wording.

Consider :
I should warn you, if you send a bounce the person receiving could make an effort to get your ISP to shut your net access off. Since you have engaged in e-mail forgery, abuse of another (read your ISP's AUP on that) net user and potentially gotten your ISP's server into the spamcop mail rejection database, they have a fair chance.
Compared to :
I should warn you, if you send me a bounce I will make a sincere effort to get your ISP to shut your net access off. Since you have engaged in e-mail forgery, abuse of another (read your ISP's AUP on that) net user and have gotten your ISP's server into the spamcop mail rejection database I have a fair chance.

Given the differences between the two it's reasonable to take one response more personally than the other.


We aren't all savvy about email headers and understanding the technologies that drive it, so no ill intent was meant here, but as a result of this discussion, malc no longer wishes to be a part of the forum community, something which I do not consider a desirable conclusion.
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stan_qaz
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:09 pm

Good point and much better wording. I'll keep that in mind for the next time.
I am not a Firetrust employee just a MW user.
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First rule of computer consulting: Sell a customer a Linux computer and you'll eat for a day,
sell a customer a Windows computer and you'll eat for a lifetime.
davews
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:13 pm

Perhaps as being the first in this thread to comment on bouncing I ought to come in as well. I am sorry that Malc feels the way he does, and if you are still reading this Malc please keep in this forum as you will find lots of useful help. It is very easy to say something the wrong way in this electronic age and regret it afterwards, I know I have sometimes erred in this respect. But rusticdog's suggestion of alternate wording is excellent and we should all take note.

I am maybe fortunate in having a very low spam load anyway, as I have long taken care not to let my email addresses fall into the usual spam traps. I also learned years ago to turn off bouncing... So I have never ever seen the sort of fake bounces others have seen, if I had I might feel more aggressive... Mailwasher is an excellent product if used properly.

Please stay here malc.

Dave
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rusticdog
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Re: Bouncing SPAM from "yourself"

Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:45 pm

malc has already gone.

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