The new MailWasher Pro FAQs

[fatlizard]

No, the intent is that the program will expire as we don't intend to block users from installing updates, not getting support etc...

We could on the flip side do this of course, but we felt the management of such things wasn't in the best interests.

Maybe it's the fact that it's 3.30am here, or that I'm putting my PC back together after putting in a 1Tb disk, or both, or maybe just stupid.

If I don't pay the annual fee, the program expires?

[MrBill]

No, the intent is that the program will expire as we don't intend to block users from installing updates, not getting support etc...

We could on the flip side do this of course, but we felt the management of such things wasn't in the best interests.

The difference being Perpetual License with paid support and paid maintenance, vs. License subscription with support and maintenance included. Two different models, both legitimate, both with lots of examples out there. Subscription is a lot less common for software in this price range, and some companies do both, with different prices. In this case, since the subscription includes an online service (FirstAlert!), subscription makes some sense - but it sure sounds like there's a significant number of people who are put off by this model, even at a reasonable annual fee.

[MrBill]

No, the intent is that the program will expire as we don't intend to block users from installing updates, not getting support etc...

We could on the flip side do this of course, but we felt the management of such things wasn't in the best interests.

Maybe it's the fact that it's 3.30am here, or that I'm putting my PC back together after putting in a 1Tb disk, or both, or maybe just stupid.

If I don't pay the annual fee, the program expires?

Yes.

[fatlizard]

No, the intent is that the program will expire as we don't intend to block users from installing updates, not getting support etc...

We could on the flip side do this of course, but we felt the management of such things wasn't in the best interests.

Maybe it's the fact that it's 3.30am here, or that I'm putting my PC back together after putting in a 1Tb disk, or both, or maybe just stupid.

If I don't pay the annual fee, the program expires?

Yes.

but we felt the management of such things wasn't in the best interests.

For whom? Certainly not the users.


I've worked and programmed in three countries, on three continents (including USA), from way back when DOS meant Disk Operating System, then to when being able to program Windows meant cracking the WM_ messages, to now when programmers are a dime a dozen, and this is the first I've heard about something as ridiculous as this.

When I have to pay a yearly fee just to keep it running, I have to ask why buy it in the first place, when in fact I'm buying it every year I use it?.
I pay ~$30 the first year, then after another 3 years it's cost me ~$60 ($30 + 3 years @ ~10/annum), and after another 3 yrs $90 (now ~$60, + 3 years @ ~10/annum) X every user you have sign up?

At what point do people stop paying? When it reaches $100? $200?

That's one wild business plan. Instead of buying MW, how do I buy into the company?

I also own Nero. Paid once, and I now own that version for life. Never have to pay them again, or upgrade again, unless I choose to. Sounds weird, doesn't it.
I like Nero. And with them, I get more than one program. Wow.

I cannot in good faith endorse a program which I believe takes advantage of the end-user, and makes people pay over and over for the same product.
I will now sign off to remove my affiliate link.

[twl845]

Fat Lizard - Have you ever subscribed to apps like Eset NOD32 which is an AV, or OnlineArmor FW, or Outpost FW, or McAffee, or Symantec, etc.? They all are subscription based apps. As an example, Eset NOD32 AV is $39 initially and $39 to renew every year after that. You can also renew for 2 years for $58.99. This is what MW is proposing a lot more reasonable. It's not a new concept at all. MW is lookin' a little better eh?

[rusticdog]

There is absolutely no doubt that we will never all agree on the new pricing. I should know as I threw more tantrums in the office about it than anyone else, and seriously, I can be such an egotistical twat some times I really do have good tantrums


Originally I was set against existing users purchasing and set against ongoing renewals, I nagged and argued and continued my long held resentment towards capitalism.

That said in my time working with Firetrust I've seen probably 15 full time staff made redundant, I've seen contractors lose out, which resulted in many redundancies also. Moreso from a user point of view, I've seen the software truly suffer from a lack of resources, all we could do is fight fires and try to address bugs. Even then we did a pretty shit job.


You don't spend 2 years developing a new program from scratch and commit yourself to another 8-10 years of development before something new comes along, without having a means to pay for it. Some may feel that we're taking advantage, which is fine, but until you've been in our environment you cannot appreciate why these decisions were made.

At a $10 fee, with $10 renewals I'm happy. It's not perfect, it won't make everyone feel warm and fuzzy, but I think it's that right balance between a realistic pricing structure and a means of continuing to improve, grow and create.

[Duck]

I cannot in good faith endorse a program which I believe takes advantage of the end-user, and makes people pay over and over for the same product. I will now sign off to remove my affiliate link.

Without putting words in his mouth, I believe that he is only saying that he would rather own the program that he paid for rather than rent it. I think that he (and many others) would rather just own the program after paying for it and then if they want updates, they would be willing to pay for it as long as the program wasn't crippled after the subscription expiration. It's the "it won't work anymore after the expiration" that is bother many. Getting what you pay for without having it "not work" anymore if you choose not to update is the problem that most are having. Why can't there be an option to purchase it without any update (unless you choose to pay for the updates) without crippling?

You don't spend 2 years developing a new program from scratch and commit yourself to another 8-10 years of development before something new comes along, without having a means to pay for it. Some may feel that we're taking advantage, which is fine, but until you've been in our environment you cannot appreciate why these decisions were made.

Hmmmm...I'm not sure that I agree with this logic. Trust me Rusticdog, personally I DO appreciate the efforts that went in to something that I use. I DO appreciate that the folks who are responsible for this great product are listening to the users. I DO appreciate your points of view. However, I also reserve the right to disagree or not. I don't need to walk in Landon Donovan's shoes to know how hard it is to play football...I can stand on the sidelines and appreciate the efforts. Sometimes it needs to be "principle" rather than a number.

On a side note, I also appreciate this mature forum. I have seen others that have really good information but I dare not post because of all of the cantankerous people that attack and call people names. There is a lot of expertise here and the folks are awesome! Thanks for being cool!

[Sidewinder]

I cannot in good faith endorse a program which I believe takes advantage of the end-user, and makes people pay over and over for the same product. I will now sign off to remove my affiliate link.

Without putting words in his mouth, I believe that he is only saying that he would rather own the program that he paid for rather than rent it. I think that he (and many others) would rather just own the program after paying for it and then if they want updates, they would be willing to pay for it as long as the program wasn't crippled after the subscription expiration. It's the "it won't work anymore after the expiration" that is bother many. Getting what you pay for without having it "not work" anymore if you choose not to update is the problem that most are having. Why can't there be an option to purchase it without any update (unless you choose to pay for the updates) without crippling?

You don't spend 2 years developing a new program from scratch and commit yourself to another 8-10 years of development before something new comes along, without having a means to pay for it. Some may feel that we're taking advantage, which is fine, but until you've been in our environment you cannot appreciate why these decisions were made.

Hmmmm...I'm not sure that I agree with this logic. Trust me Rusticdog, personally I DO appreciate the efforts that went in to something that I use. I DO appreciate that the folks who responsible for this great product are listening to the users. I DO appreciate your points of view. However, I also reserve the right to disagree or not. I don't need to walk in Landon Donovan's shoes to know how hard it is to play football...I can stand on the sidelines and appreciate the efforts. Sometimes it needs to be "principle" rather than a number.

On a side note, I also appreciate this mature forum. I have seen others that have really good information but I dare not post because of all of the cantankerous people that attack and call people names. There is a lot of expertise here and the folks are awesome! Thanks for being cool!

With all properly licensed software you never own the product, just the right to use it.
Based on some of the other comments posted it's clear that there are those who want something for nothing. That today is totally unrealistic. With all of the hacks and illicit posts that go on today I think that fair use is warranted. Surely most, if not all blow more than $10 a year on beer or other non-essential things.

[Duck]

With all properly licensed software you never own the product, just the right to use it.
Based on some of the other comments posted it's clear that there are those who want something for nothing. That today is totally unrealistic. With all of the hacks and illicit posts that go on today I think that fair use is warranted. Surely most, if not all blow more than $10 a year on beer or other non-essential things.

WADR, If it is on my computer that I paid for...call it what you want but I own it! I do agree to use it as intended without modifying it, etc, and I don't own the rights to the program, but I DO own it as having agreed to the use specified in the terms of agreement. WE may be talking semantics here, but I think you know what I am saying.

Again, WADR, it is no ones business how anyone spends their money ( on beer or any other non-essential things). No one knows the financial situation of others. I think that some may have very valid points, but NO ONE here is getting something for nothing...they are paying for it.

Rusticdog was right....there is no one solution to please everyone (para phrasing) but I think by venting here, it may make things easier than keeping it bottled up. I think that the company appreciates the different points of views and it is extremely savvy of them to do so. The bottom line is that those what want to pay for it will, and those who won't will move on. Firetrust will just have to decide how to balance it's profits while keeping customers happy versus moving into the poor house because they are not getting paid enough. Sometimes when you do it right, you can sell at a much lower cost while increasing the customer base...which gives a much larger profit in the end. The other option is to sell at a higher price, but alienate the customer base and end up getting less in the end. It sounds like Nick and the crew have found a palatable and workable option. Again, I don't think that the problem is paying for an upgrade...it's the recurrent costs for the program that was paid for and the lack of option to buy upgrades or not.

I wasn't advocating Fatlizard's point of view...just trying to clarify it because it looked like some may have taken it wrong. We will never know since he left.

[Sidewinder]

With all properly licensed software you never own the product, just the right to use it.
Based on some of the other comments posted it's clear that there are those who want something for nothing. That today is totally unrealistic. With all of the hacks and illicit posts that go on today I think that fair use is warranted. Surely most, if not all blow more than $10 a year on beer or other non-essential things.

WADR, If it is on my computer that I paid for...call it what you want but I own it! I do agree to use it as intended without modifying it, etc, and I don't own the rights to the program, but I DO own it as having agreed to the use specified in the terms of agreement. WE may be talking semantics here, but I think you know what I am saying.

Again, WADR, it is no ones business how anyone spends their money ( on beer or any other non-essential things). No one knows the financial situation of others. I think that some may have very valid points, but NO ONE here is getting something for nothing...they are paying for it.

Rusticdog was right....there is no one solution to please everyone (para phrasing) but I think by venting here, it may make things easier than keeping it bottled up. I think that the company appreciates the different points of views and it is extremely savvy of them to do so. The bottom line is that those what want to pay for it will, and those who won't will move on. Firetrust will just have to decide how to balance it's profits while keeping customers happy versus moving into the poor house because they are not getting paid enough. Sometimes when you do it right, you can sell at a much lower cost while increasing the customer base...which gives a much larger profit in the end. The other option is to sell at a higher price, but alienate the customer base and end up getting less in the end. It sounds like Nick and the crew have found a palatable and workable option. Again, I don't think that the problem is paying for an upgrade...it's the recurrent costs for the program that was paid for and the lack of option to buy upgrades or not.

I wasn't advocating Fatlizard's point of view...just trying to clarify it because it looked like some may have taken it wrong. We will never know since he left.

Not trying to belabor the point but the Firetrust Software License Agreement that all must accept says "to use one copy".

EDIT: It also clearly states that the software is "subscription software".

[MrBill]

I think some would LIKE to get something for nothing - a software package backed by a viable company with resources available to provide support, fix bugs and continue to develop the software doesn't come free - it has ongoing costs and needs ongoing revenue. The model of paying for new development by growing the customer base has limits - and FT is near the limit. Once the customer base is stable, the only way to get continuous revenue for maintenance is to charge for maintenance. Just my opinion.

[Duck]

WE may be talking semantics here, but I think you know what I am saying.

Not trying to belabor the point but the Firetrust Software License Agreement that all must accept says "to use one copy".

EDIT: It also clearly states that the software is "subscription software".

Respectfully understood....but my point remains the same.

[Duck]

I think some would LIKE to get something for nothing - a software package backed by a viable company with resources available to provide support, fix bugs and continue to develop the software doesn't come free - it has ongoing costs and needs ongoing revenue. The model of paying for new development by growing the customer base has limits - and FT is near the limit. Once the customer base is stable, the only way to get continuous revenue for maintenance is to charge for maintenance. Just my opinion.

I'm trying to be open and look at this from all sides. However, like I said...NO ONE is "getting something for nothing" because they are paying for the original program. I'm just saying that some would have been happy with just purchasing the program once with the option to buy updates later if they decided to without having to buy the program and then it stops working. If someone doesn't want the updates, then they don't get it unless they pay for the updates, but at least they would have the original program that still works. He made is point about how long does one have to continue paying for "ongoing costs and the needed "ongoing revenue". The point I understood him making was that if someone doesn't want to take advantage of updates and continued development, then they should be able to buy the program once and receive NO updates.

I think it may be important here to say that you are preaching to the choir...again, just looking at this from another angle. I wish he was here to debate his own points further. I respect the efforts and I consider what they are doing as being fair....but everyone is entitled to make their opinions (respectfully of course) that may help the company make their own decisions.

No more belaboring for me...I've made my decision...and I thank you for sharing yours.

[stan_qaz]

I wish he was here to debate his own points further.

Keep in mind the time difference (his local time is at the top right of every page) and the strange hours he works. If you don't see him as logged on at the bottom of the page he is likely sleeping or engaging in some other form of slacking.

I'm not going to worry about the price or license stuff, that is an issue for the marketing weasels who I want nothing to do with.

[Duck]

Is there a way to get rid of the initial "Welcome To MailWasher Pro! Take A Minute To Check Out What's New" in the preview block? It only shows up initially and after that, I can see the previews of my email. It was GREAT information for the first few times, but I don't need/want to see it each time I initially start up MWP. Is there an option to NOT have to see this on initial launch? What am I missing?